Dzwoni Macierewicz do komisji wyborczej… czyli o działalności niepodległościowej w latach 70-tych.

O inspiracji płynącej z kazań prymasa Wyszyńskiego, kłótni z Jackiem Kuroniem i liczeniu frekwencji w wyborach do sejmu PRL profesorowi Andrzejowi Nowakowi opowiada Antoni Macierewicz.
10.08.2018 11:15

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Antoni Macierewicz: Bardzo ważna dla mnie była (…) książka Bohdana Cywińskiego „Rodowody niepokornych”. Ponieważ Bohdana Cywińskiego poznałem będąc dzieckiem, to wznowienie znajomości i bliskości intelektualnej współpracy z nim było dla mnie niezwykle ważne. Z drugiej strony zaczynały się działania organizujące społeczność studencką i środowisko młodych naukowców, w tym także listy protestacyjne w związku z wprowadzeniami przez PZPR zmianami w konstytucji. Te zmiany były częścią ewolucji systemu komunistycznego w tym kraju, który później przeżywaliśmy w tak zwanej trzeciej Rzeczpospolitej. Warto widzieć tę ciągłość; z formalnego punktu widzenia wydawało się, że to były konstrukcje quasi-demokratyczne.

Prof. Andrzej Nowak: I niepodległe.

I niepodległe. Tymczasem postanowiono wpisać zasadę podległości do samej konstytucji, dlatego że gdyby w przyszłości powstała większa swoboda instytucjonalna, to musiał od wewnątrz być wprowadzony element trzymający spójność bloku komunistycznego. Rok 1973 to były oczywiście także wspaniałe Kazania świętokrzyskie księdza prymasa Wyszyńskiego dla nas wszystkich niebywała uczta duchowa i wielka nauka po dziś dzień.

Jak ludzie mieścili się w kościele Świętego Krzyża, bo przecież bardzo dużo osób tam chodziło…

Masa. Pamiętam straszny tłok w kościele, ale tego tłoku się nie czuło słuchając tych kazań, w istocie wykładów o myśli duchowo-niepodległościowo-socjologicznej. To był przekaz katolickiej nauki społecznej i myśli o Polsce, który we mnie tkwi po dzień dzisiejszy.

Może szkoda, że Instytut Prymasowski nie zadbał o upowszechnienie nagrań tych historycznych, fundamentalnych dla naszej historii kazań…

Naprawdę istnieją?

A SB nie nagrywała, przepraszam bardzo? Brak tych nagrań w dzisiejszej pamięci, świadomości historycznej jest ogromnym grzechem zaniedbania, bo tak jak Pan przypomina Kazania świętokrzyskie Prymasa miały dla polskiej historii lat 1970. zasadnicze, inspirujące znaczenie.

Po dzień dzisiejszy mają wielkie znaczenie, to są dla mnie kamienie milowe.

(…)

Ale wróćmy do politycznej historii przed 1976 rokiem…

Na razie jest 1973 rok, ciągle czekamy, ciągle jesteśmy reaktywni, czyli ciągle odpowiadamy na presję, na inicjatywę drugiej strony. Oni zmieniają konstytucję, to my list protestacyjny, glajchszaltują organizacje studenckie, to my próbujemy tworzyć alternatywne organizacje studenckie ale to są wszystko reakcje, inicjatywa należy do aparatu komunistycznego…

Czy Akt Końcowy Konferencji Bezpieczeństwa w współpracy w Europie, podpisany latem 1975 w Helsinkach i dający gwarancje praw człowieka, był dla was jakąś nadzieją, czymś ważnym? Bo funkcjonuje opinia, że od Helsinek ’75 zaczyna się dopiero rozwój ruchu demokratycznego…

Był czymś bardzo ważnym, zwłaszcza dla takich ludzi jak Jan Olszewski i jego środowisko. Kwestia wykorzystania tzw. trzeciego koszyka [postanowień Aktu Końcowego z Helsinek, dotyczy przestrzegania praw człowieka przyp. AN] przy ocenie jakiejś autonomizacji krajów Europy Wschodniej, zwłaszcza Polski na pewno była rozważana. Ja tego wtedy zupełnie tak nie odbierałem, raczej odwrotnie. Raczej był to dla mnie element oszustwa, zwycięstwo rosyjskie; sądziłem, że Rosjanie uzyskają gwarancję politycznego panowania na terenie Europy Wschodniej, że mamy do czynienia z substytutem konferencji pokojowej, która nigdy się nie odbyła, tym razem już takiej, która przypieczętowuje sowiecką dominację w Europie

Tu zmiana konstytucji PRL, a tu Helsinki.

Tak, w zamian za zupełnie rozmyty, niejasny, hipotetyczny, będący pod ich absolutną kontrolą trzeci koszyk Aktu Końcowego, dotyczący praw człowieka. Gdy dzisiaj na to patrzę, to uważam, ze nie doceniliśmy dynamizmu nadchodzących młodych pokoleń, które przestały być warunkowane traumą okupacji i stalinizmu tego dynamizmu na pewno nie doceniliśmy. Nie doceniliśmy równocześnie słabnięcia i coraz większej demoralizacji aparatu komunistycznego, czyli generalnie mówiąc, słabnięcia całego systemu. To się jawnie okazało w 1976 roku, chociaż było to jasne właściwie po protestach konstytucyjnych. Nam sie udało zebrać wtedy, nie wiem, chyba ze 3 tysiące podpisów wśród młodych pracowników nauki. To było w tamtych warunkach wprost niebywałe. Pamiętajmy, że koledzy ze środowisk nazwijmy to komandoskich czy postkomunistycznych, czy tych establishmentowo-opozycyjnych, chcieli ograniczyć się do listów kilku czy kilkunastu osób, również ze względu na przekonanie, że się nie da stworzyć żadnej akcji masowej.
Że się nie da zejść niżej do społeczeństwa.

Tak, że społeczeństwo jest jakby zablokowane. Tymczasem nasza inicjatywa protestacyjnego listu studentów i młodych pracowników nauki okazała się nieprawdopodobnym sukcesem. W głównych miastach uniwersyteckich po kilkuset czy kilkudziesięciu co najmniej ludzi o statusie adiunkta podpisywało ten list.

Nie wiem, czy to dobrze interpretuję, ale myślę, że to mogła być kolejna zachęta do tego, co się stanie w roku następnym, czyli do tworzenia KOR-u.

Dla nas było to świadectwem, że takie działania są możliwe. KOR miał jednak swoją bardzo rzadko pamiętaną wersję pierwotną, już na początku 1976 roku. Mianowicie w marcu tego roku podczas tzw. wyborów do sejmu PRL, doszło do pierwszego bezpośredniego starcia koncepcji politycznych środowiska niepodległościowego i postkomunistycznego. Od 1975 roku byłem dopraszany do takiego grona, które sobie przypisuje rolę konstruowania opozycji antysystemowej…

Zapraszany w związku z listem protestacyjnym w sprawie zmian w konstytucji?

Tak. Najpierw mnie zaproszono na jakieś imieniny, juz nie wiem czyje, a później po iluś miesiącach, na spotkania, w których brali udział Jan Józef Lipski, Jan Olszewski, Jacek Kuroń, rzadziej Michnik. No i w tym gronie różne rzeczy były rozważane, począwszy od kwestii pomocy finansowej. Istniał fundusz pochodzący jeszcze z czasów Kazimierza Pużaka, wspierający istotne z punktu widzenia kulturalnego czy politycznego postacie, które nie miały możliwości zdobycia elementarnych środków do życia, więc dawano im stypendia. W tym gronie dyskutowano nie tylko nad tym, kto potrzebuje wsparcia, ale także, jakie akcje polityczne podjąć; przedstawiłem nasza propozycję, żeby wezwać do bojkotu marcowych tak zwanych wyborów do sejmu PRL-owskiego.

Marzec 1976?

Tak jest, marzec 1976. Doszło wtedy do dużego konfliktu z Jackiem Kuroniem, który mówił: my mamy wzywać do stawienia trzech krzyżyków na 30-lecie PRL, czyli skreślać i wzywać do skreślenia. A ja powiedziałem: nie, sprawdźmy jak jest naprawdę. Wezwijmy do bojkotu. Doszło wtedy do dużego konfliktu z Jackiem Kuroniem, który mówił: my mamy wzywać do stawienia trzech krzyżyków na 30-lecie PRL, czyli skreślać i wzywać do skreślenia. A ja powiedziałem: nie, sprawdźmy jak jest naprawdę. Wezwijmy do bojkotu Jeśli przez Radio Wolna Europa pójdzie stosowna informacja, to zasięg takiej akcji będzie spory, a równocześnie spróbujmy sprawdzić, jak naprawdę jest z tymi wyborami, z tą niemal 100-procentową frekwencją, stwórzmy kontrolę wyborów przez obserwację. My mamy drużyny harcerskie, wy macie różnych ludzi, spróbujmy to ustalić. Nie zaakceptowali tego pomysłu, ale my to zrobiliśmy. Ludwik Dorn, który był wtedy jednym z członków kierownictwa Gromady, zrobił próbę socjologiczną…

Gdzie, tylko w Warszawie?

Skąd! Także na Śląsku, na Wybrzeżu, łącznie to było chyba 50 komisji, które naprawdę zbadaliśmy. Wszyscy obserwowaliśmy, ilu ludzi weszło do lokali „wyborczych”, a następnie kilku z nas, mających bądź znajomych, bądź telefony ważnych osób, dzwoniło do tych komisji i pytało, ile oni policzyli oddanych głosów. I oni odpowiadali. Ja dzwoniłem np. jako ówczesny redaktor naczelny „Życia Warszawy”. Tak sie przedstawiałem: mówi Wysocki, podajcie, towarzysze, ilu tam u was ludzi głosowało i oni podawali, a my to zestawialiśmy z naszymi obserwacjami. dzwoniłem np. jako ówczesny redaktor naczelny „Życia Warszawy”. Tak sie przedstawiałem: mówi Wysocki, podajcie, towarzysze, ilu tam u was ludzi głosowało i oni podawali, a my to zestawialiśmy z naszymi obserwacjami Następnie wszystko było zestawiane i wychodziła olbrzymia różnica. Podawano oficjalnie frekwencję 96-97 proc., a nam wyszło około 60 proc.! Mówię o tym dlatego, że to był z wielu powodów ważny moment, także dla mnie, dla naszego myślenia politycznego. Podawano oficjalnie frekwencję 96-97 proc., a nam wyszło około 60 proc.! Dokumentował on tę tendencję, która była dla nas ważna od samego początku: wychodzenia z akcja społeczną na zewnątrz, to znaczy im bardziej masowo, w im większym stopniu ludzi aktywnie uczestniczą w takich działaniach, które są legalne, ale wykorzystują tę legalność w kierunku niepodległościowym tym lepiej. Także sam element wyborczy, demokratyczny była dla nas bardzo ważny, bo on się później powtórzy w naszych konfliktach z kolegami „komandosami” wielokrotnie”. Potem będzie to samo w „Solidarności”, kiedy się spieramy o wybory w związku, czy „Solidarność” na być demokratyczna i ma wyłonić reprezentantów z tej 10-milioneowej masy czy też nie, czy powinna zachować nad nią kontrolę niewybieralna elita. Później będzie Okrągły Stół i też spór o wybory, i wreszcie teraz, po 2015 roku, też mamy spór o to, czy ludzi wyłonieni z wyborów maja jakieś prawa do upominania się o realizację programu, który wygrał w demokratycznych wyborach, czy też ważniejsze są tzw. autorytety pochodzące z zupełnie innego źródła. Ten leitmotiv wyborczy, demokratyczny był dla mnie zawsze bardzo ważny.

Cały wywiad został zamieszczony w książce Andrzeja Nowaka, Filary niepodległości, Kraków 2018, wyd. Biały Kruk.


Ostatnie wiadomości z tego działu

Prof. Andrzej Nowak: Lekcja historii. Wspomnienie o Richardzie Pipesie (1923-2018)

ARCANA nagrodzone przez MSZ!

Historia marksizmu i Conrad – ARCANA 135 już w księgarniach!

Potrzebujemy niepodległych elit mówi nam Jarosław Szarek, prezes IPN – ARCANA 132 już w księgarniach!

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07.02.2019 8:38
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07.02.2019 4:19
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06.02.2019 20:10
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06.02.2019 18:00
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05.02.2019 22:58
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05.02.2019 10:12
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04.02.2019 20:15
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04.02.2019 10:53
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04.02.2019 3:43
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03.02.2019 18:51
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03.02.2019 4:16
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02.02.2019 20:11
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02.02.2019 9:36
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02.02.2019 5:21
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01.02.2019 18:04
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01.02.2019 7:15
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01.02.2019 0:24
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31.01.2019 16:01
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31.01.2019 1:01
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31.01.2019 0:56
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30.01.2019 10:47
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30.01.2019 4:38
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30.01.2019 4:07
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29.01.2019 14:31
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29.01.2019 8:50
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28.01.2019 23:39
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28.01.2019 10:24
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28.01.2019 1:05
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27.01.2019 16:53
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27.01.2019 12:01
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27.01.2019 9:16
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26.01.2019 23:57
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26.01.2019 23:48
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26.01.2019 1:56
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25.01.2019 11:41
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24.01.2019 16:16
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24.01.2019 14:02
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23.01.2019 20:06
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23.01.2019 17:45
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23.01.2019 11:58
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23.01.2019 2:39
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22.01.2019 19:37
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22.01.2019 17:00
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22.01.2019 6:35
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21.01.2019 21:21
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21.01.2019 17:02
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21.01.2019 7:47
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20.01.2019 23:39
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20.01.2019 11:40
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20.01.2019 0:57
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19.01.2019 13:59
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19.01.2019 3:07
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18.01.2019 17:25
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18.01.2019 9:02
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17.01.2019 21:02
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17.01.2019 10:06
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16.01.2019 22:47
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16.01.2019 12:07
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15.01.2019 9:20
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